Turn over for what: Cavs 108 – Bucks 90

Cleveland Cavaliers 108 Final
Recap | Box Score
90 Milwaukee Bucks
Ersan Ilyasova, PF 34 MIN | 6-11 FG | 1-2 FT | 6 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 14 PTS | -8 +/-

He played Kevin Love to a draw, which probably speaks more to how the Cavs are using Love than to Ilyasova playing a great game or anything like that. He did all the things he usually does, though he wasn’t able to take any charges. Milwaukee could have used someone to step up and protect the paint in any way in the second half as the Cavs got into the paint over and over.

Giannis Antetokounmpo, SF 35 MIN | 5-11 FG | 5-6 FT | 9 REB | 5 AST | 1 STL | 1 BLK | 3 TO | 15 PTS | -15 +/-

When Milwaukee was forcing turnovers or running off Cleveland misses in the first half, he was fantastic, with 11 points and seven rebounds before the break. In the second half, Cleveland started to make shots and the Bucks had to operate more and more out of the half court, where he wasn’t as effective with Lebron James keying on him the majority of time the two of them shared the court.

Zaza Pachulia, C 31 MIN | 5-7 FG | 1-1 FT | 9 REB | 3 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 4 TO | 11 PTS | +10 +/-

After wowing the league with 18 offensive rebounds against the Nets, Zaza had a pretty run of the mill night against Cleveland. As Lebron got going int he second half, he wasn’t able to provide much rim protection and failed to so much as get in James’ way very often.

Michael Carter-Williams, PG 34 MIN | 9-14 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 5 AST | 4 STL | 2 BLK | 6 TO | 19 PTS | -2 +/-

He shot the ball far better against the Cavs than he did against the Nets in Brooklyn on Friday (7-26), largely because he avoided jump shots. Only three of his 14 attempts came from outside 13 feet. Everything else was a floater or an attack at the rim, where he had success finding his own offense. He attempted to force the ball into his teammates in close quarters on his drives though. Of his six turnovers, many came on passes to players less than five feet away that were poorly timed or simply thrown to guys who weren’t open.

Khris Middleton, SG 39 MIN | 5-7 FG | 4-5 FT | 5 REB | 7 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 5 TO | 15 PTS | -2 +/-

Seven attempts really doesn’t feel like enough. It never felt like much was called specifically to get the ball to Middleton and he wasn’t able to get many open touches in the corners either. Especially in the second half, it felt like Milwaukee could have got Middleton a few more looks, either out of the post or coming off screens. He had an uncharacteristically high turnover game, with five.

Johnny O’Bryant III, PF 3 MIN | 0-0 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | -3 +/-

Garbage time minutes only.

Chris Johnson, SF 15 MIN | 1-6 FG | 0-0 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 2 PTS | -14 +/-

His shots did not fall. Without that, he becomes a less interesting player, as he doesn’t really create for his teammates or do anything that stands out defensively. Milwaukee needed a spark from its bench and he doesn’t really seem like the sort of player capable of providing that in ways other than jump shot making.

Miles Plumlee, C 3 MIN | 1-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 2 PTS | -3 +/-

Garbage time minutes only.

John Henson, C 15 MIN | 2-3 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 2 BLK | 2 TO | 4 PTS | -25 +/-

His opportunities were limited, partially because he picked up a technical foul after what he felt was a clean block of a Tristan Thompson dunk attempt in the second quarter. The refs seemed to bother him all game.

Jerryd Bayless, PG 23 MIN | 2-6 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 4 PTS | -31 +/-

He’s come back to Earth in such a severe way after really playing above average basketball in December. His shooting numbers have been pedestrian and he isn’t really that great of a playmaker. With Dudley and Mayo out, he’s really the only capable creator Milwaukee has on the bench, but defenses have been able to pay more attention to him, limiting his effectiveness quite a bit. He provided virtually nothing against Cleveland.

Four Things We Saw

  1. At this point, stylistically, Kevin Love is essentially filling the same role that Ersan Ilyasova fills for the Bucks. He stands around the perimeter, moving the ball if he’s covered and shooting the ball if he’s open. The Cavs didn’t post him up one time during the entire game and only sparingly used him in pick and rolls by the time the third quarter rolled around.

    To be fair, he wasn’t very effective even in his limited role against Milwaukee, but it’s sad to see a once great player looking essentially like a shadow of himself.

  2. J.R. Smith hit seven threes. Some of his attempts were tough, hand in the face, pull-up dribble, ridiculous makes. Others were wide-open, this guy has been standing alone in the corner for far too long. The latter were more frustrating than the former, as a guy who was as hot as he was probably shouldn’t have found as much open space as he did in the second half. He helped put the Bucks away with three consecutive makes from deep early in the fourth quarter.
  3. Lebron is incredible. Milwaukee led by six points with just over a minute and a half to go in the third quarter when he re-entered the game. He was visibly angry in the early part of the third quarter and very focused when he returned. He proceeded to score six points on dunks and layups and assist on another basket in the next minute and a half, giving the Cavs a lead going into the fourth. The Bucks never recovered and never had a shot at stopping him the rest of the way.
  4. Milwaukee turned the ball over 23 times, which goes a long way towards explaining how they lost the game, despite shooting 54%, out-rebounding the Cavs and making the same number of free throws. But a lack of 3-point shooting (only 3-12 3FG) and 23 turnovers explains it.

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  1. So….how was this trade good long term? Mcw looks like a scrub every time I watch him play. With 0 shooting on this team our “pass first” pg found Middleton a whopping 7 shits? High turnover numbers coupled with poor shooting and a lack of court vision makes him pretty hard to watch. I miss Brandon knight

    • Brandon Knight had trouble keeping his turnovers low as well. That isn’t mutually exclusive to MCW.

      Nobody was expecting MCW to make the Bucks better right now. The Bucks moved Knight knowing we’d probably end up being worse in the short-term. And that’s fine, because as much of a surprise as the team has been this season, making the playoffs was never the main goal.

      Knight is likely to get a pretty big contract this offseason, and Milwaukee clearly didn’t feel comfortable getting locked into a long term deal, especially since Middleton is also eligible this offseason and figures to be the better player going forward.

      Meanwhile, MCW has another two years on his rookie deal, time for the Bucks to evaluate his performances and see if he’s a part of the Bucks future with Giannis and Jabari.

      PS: No review of the Bucks/Nets game!? C’mon! I would’ve loved to see the analysis for that!

      • Listen man, i talked myself into liking the trade and still like the potential but I’m saying Mcw looks like a bad basketball player. He isn’t a good passers he shoots like shit his defense isn’t good and for a 6 6 guy hes not very athletic. He gets his layups blocked far too often. I think ennis has more upside at this point

        • I don’t disagree with you on most of those point. For all his length and size, he gets blown by way too much because he overextends himself on defense too often. His jumper is obviously very, very bad right now, though his free throw percentages (up over 80% as a Bucks versus his days in Philly where he shot 60%) is a good sign. And no, he isn’t a great passer by any stretch, and I think that’s been the most disappointing thing to fans is his rather average playmaking skills, something we were led to believe would be an improvement over Knight.

          Height doesn’t equal athleticism though, and while he isn’t crazy athletic, he’s no Zaza or anything lol. His biggest thing will be working on his foot speed and his lateral quickness to better move himself and keep in front of quicker guards.

          Ennis still isn’t better by any stretch. He has a slightly better jumper, but that’s really about it.

    • We have to be patient with this, guys.

      Firstly, NOBODY predicted the Bucks to win 30 games. Let alone 30 by the All*Star break.
      Their fall has had some to do with the Knight trade for MCW but it’s had equally as much to do with the bench totally disappearing.

      GONE are the times when Bayless, Dudley, Mayo, Henson and (insert PG here) spread the floor and lit up the NBA’s 2nd units with their versatility, ball-movement and generally unselfish, efficient play.

      Dudley’s ailing.
      Mayo’s ailing.
      Henson seems to be frustrated.
      Bayless is now asked to do too much.
      All whilst trying to figure out new rotations with Ennis and Plumlee and D-Leaguer Johnson.

      That’s not easy.

      Patience, guys. Patience.

      It’ll take some time to analyse the Knight – MCW trade and whether they’d have been better off taking the Lakers protected pick from the Suns. Analysing the trade after 15 games isn’t it.

      • Couch Potato Scout

        Thank you!
        People have to see over this year, and wait to see in the future if the trade was worth it.

  2. It’s hard for me to watch the Bucks these days. I mean, Yuk!!!

    First of all, although we’ve had some good play from our vets, I just can’t get excited about them playing so many minutes. I can see giving Zaza and Ers and Jerryd maybe 20 minutes per game, but that’s about it. It’s not just their age, but that these guys have been around the Association long enough that it’s unlikely that they’re going to really make a big jump higher in their careers. Maybe there’s an exception in the mix — someone who could be an important part of the future for the Bucks — but otherwise watching these guys get major minutes is not only uninteresting, but really frustratring.

    Instead, I’d go with our younger and newer players. Miles Plumlee might not be all that young, but he hasn’t been around the NBA all that long, and I’d very much like to see what he can do to for the remainder of the season.

    If we’re going to keep Chris Johnson, let’s play him at least 20 minutes per game, or go back to the D-League for a better outside shooter (or is Scott Suggs back from playing in France, yet?).

    I’d like to play Johnny O’Bryant at least a little, if he can at least be somewhat competent on the court. Is he just a total bust, or going through some temporary tough times adjusting to the NBA?

    Of course, I think the minimalization of John Henson is a travesty, and somewhat of a tragedy — but everyone knows that, right?

    The second thing that makes the Bucks a dud to watch is the lack of good passing from our point guards. We may be stuck with MCW for awhile — and maybe he’ll figure things out and become really good for the Bucks — but did we really have to suffer through all those minutes against the Nets, for example? I know Tyler and Jerryd haven’t been all that good at the point either, but let’s bench MCW for some minutes when he gets shot-happy. Out of the three, I’d play them according to who controls his shot selection the best, and who dribbles the least, and who moves the ball the most.

    Also, I’d try more lineups with Giannis and Khris handling the ball as guards, and with John and Miles on the frontline together. However, please don’t damage our future by playing Giannis and Khris 40-plus minutes a game, either; take it easy on those guys. Also, I wouldn’t be averse to signing another point guard from the D-League if the MCW/Tyler/Jerryd trio are incorrigible about not sharing the basketball.

    These are just some thoughts, which may or may not be on track, and I’m very open to what others think about improving the team. I like to think there are things that can be done with the Bucks to finish this season in a positive way.

    • There’s so much that could at least be given a try. It seems Kidd needs to step up his discipline policy for sloppy play and bad shot selection. Maybe he’s trying to be too much of a “players coach”. Whatever the problem, it is awful to watch. Little ball movement, forced passes, and absolutely zero off ball movement at times. Combine all that with MCW’s sh*t eating grin when he finally makes a jumper after clanging 5 in a row, and this has to be the least enjoyable Bucks basketball since Jennings and Ellis were missing 12 jumpers apiece per night.

      • Well said, Chris, in my opinion.

        Along with the players, it’ll be interesting to see how Jason Kidd performs for the rest of the season. As a coach, he’s pretty much of an unknown quantity himself.

    • Plus/Minus stats from the last two games:
      MCW: +17, -2
      Bayless: -22, -31

      And these were far more extreme at certain points of those games as well. Bayless has been brutal to watch when not paired with Mayo and Dudley because he’s not a point guard, but a scorer. That’s why he worked so well with Marshall earlier in the year. As for Ennis, I like his potential, but he’s not there. Sick of watching him dribble for 20 seconds and throw up an awkward floater (a la Brandon Knight). And I’d be perfectly fine not giving JOB any minutes at this point because he is awful, and hangs his head after every play. Totally brings down the morale of the team. MCW, Middleton, Giannis, Henson, and Plumlee are the players I’d like the organization to focus on the rest of the season.

    • TheLastoftheBucksFans

      From what I’ve seen Henson hasn’t proven he can be a starting caliber player. I won’t get into his one post move as that has been discussed a lot here. Also why has he been so whiny lately? He literally just let Lebron run by him and watched him drive to the hoop one time.

      Our lack of outside shooting is so sad to watch right now. When MIddleton leaves the floor we have basically no floor spacing and the result is usually 3 people standing around. I think they should watch the Badgers to re-learn some team basketball because apparently Kidd stopped caring.

  3. Not so much disagreeing with you Avid as continuing the discussion…

    I was reading an ESPN game recap for the 76ers/Knicks (I think Friday) that said — in a way that was matter-of-fact, almost casual — that Nerlens Noel has been much more productive on offense for the 76ers since MCW left that team.

    I’m not sure what to make of MCW, but he’s been hard for me to watch, really hard. I’m not giving up on him, but it’s hard to be patient with him. His demeanor on the court seems kind of goofy, or uninvolved, or clueless — or something not exactly reassuring or inspiring.

    One thing a coach can do to influence a player is to control his minutes. I agree there’s not much to choose from of late between MCW/Tyler/Jerryd, but I hope coach Kidd makes it clear to that trio that whoever helps the team most as a leader and facilitator is the one who will get the most minutes.

    • The numbers really don’t lie. I don’t know how to find the efficiency numbers for Bayless since the trade, but MCW’s offensive rating is 96, and defensive rating is 101. Tyler Ennis has been paired with Bayless often, and his OFF rating is a putrid 80 and defensive rating is 104. So Bayless’s probably aren’t too far off. That gives me hope that MCW will be fine with some time, and once some shooters get healthy.

      • According to nba.com ORtg-87.6 DRtg-99.2 since the trade

        They have Ennis 95.9 and 104.4

        MCW is 100.4 100.4

        Are you using basketball reference, their numbers are always quite different and not based on the same things that nba.com are

        • Yes I was, thank you. I thought that was odd because I read different numbers just a couple days ago, and MCW’s should’ve only gotten better after being a positive the last few games.

  4. I’m a big fan of using the stats, but I think the picture of any player must be balanced with the eye test. To combine the two is the best way to evaluate a player; to do either one without the other is to probably make a poor evaluation.

    I think the general consensus from fans here at Bucksketball is that MCW has been hard to watch, if not unbearable. The stats can provide some good perspective, but can’t completely exclude the eye test, which I consider to be at least as important as the stats.

    I’m still hopeful about MCW, but there has to be something inside of him that really wants to play a good brand of basketball, especially an emphasis on teamwork. There also has to be those outer skills that go along with being an exceptional point guard, such as general leadership, floor command, court vision, pace of play, timing of passes, mastery of the dribble, and shot selection.

    If MCW shows signs of having the right inner attitude, I’m willing to give him some time to develop his outer floor game. He could start by passing up on most jumpshots early in the shot clock, even if he’s fairly open, in favor of getting his teammates involved. Secondly, he could do more swinging of the ball with the pass than pounding the ball with the dribble, or even driving with the dribble.

    At least these are my impressions and my hunches, but I really appreciate other points of view, especially because I think a lot of other fans watch more closely than I do, and more perceptively in at least some ways.

  5. Couch Potato Scout

    I agree with everyone that the young guys should get more time on the court, I mean what is the point of doing a trade “for the future” unless you actually use the guys that are going to be important “in the future”. I’m still a fan of MCW, even though you have to cringe every time he takes a shot outside of 12 feet. I still feel he’s the best PG on the roster, just because of his defense, his potential, and his confidence (even though it sometimes gets him in trouble). I would rather have MCW make some mistakes and improve in a couple years to a point where all the lowlights we now see are turned into highlights. And again, I feel that the Bucks would be a much better team if they stopped playing so much half-court basketball. They should be a run ‘n gun team! They have so much youth, length, and energy, there is basically no excuse as to why they shouldn’t be trying to make their team focus on D and then just run the fastbreak. I feel this defense first attitude, combined with a speed oriented attack, would greatly lessen the amount of turnover’s and bad decisions made by the Buck’s point guards, because it would not allow them to dribble away the shot clock only to chuck up a brick from 20 ft.

    One question: Is there any young C/PF you guys know that are big enough to guard and compete with the Marc Gasol’s and Roy Hibbert’s of the world in the post? (young meaning below 27)

    • Hassan Whiteside comes to mind. I don’t know how long the Heat have him under contract for or how much money he’ll demand, but he’s interesting. Enes Kanter would also be a good option. Others include: Greg Monroe, Nikola Vucevic, Steven Adams, Jonas Valanciunas. And those are only the ones that will be free agents. There’s options, but all of them will cost a considerable amount of money.

      • Couch Potato Scout

        Yeah, I was trying to think of someone in the Whiteside mold (he is on contract until next year). Great list, I really appreciate it. Also, I just wasn’t sure how good on defense Kanter or Monroe were.

    • The Bucks mostly do try to play fast in score points in transition. The problem is when teams force the Bucks to slow down and play in a half court set, which has been doubly difficult with Mayo and Dudley missing time. The floor spacing has been atrocious as of late.

  6. The only numbers you guys need to know is 4-12 since the trade….that’s it! Keep defending the trade if you want but 4-12…and losing playoff position. MCW is not a good basketball player or point guard and is not better then Knight whatever criticism you have on knight is bs compared to MCW. Knight led this team in scoring , had us over 500., and was pretty much an all star this year…4-12 now and a team that doesn’t look worthy of making the playoffs. The numbers are 4-12

    • Couch Potato Scout

      Kevin, I agree but I think it should be done even more, and even after missed shots they should try to push the ball up. (they could try to be the Philadelphia Eagles of the NBA) And the could also use my MCW-Giannis screen and roll combo.

      Shaan, how long have you been a Bucks fan? Haven’t you seen what happens when the Bucks just try to do good this year? That theory got them in 1st round purgatory for at least 5 yrs. All those wasted trades and $$$, gave us Monta Ellis, John Salmons, Stephen Jackson, JJ Redick (giving up on Tobias Harris!), Carlos Delfino, Gary Neal, Drew Gooden, Carlos Maggetie (I could keep on going) and more recently overpaying for Zaza and OJ Mayo.
      So far good things have happened when we look to the future. It was extremely lucky that the Bucks started tanking because that led to ownership changing hands, promises that a new stadium will be built, and the drafting of Jabari. Other good future-oriented moves include the drafting of Giannis, and the trade for Dudley + draft picks.

  7. Well I’ve been a bucks fan since birth and back when they had a core with big dog Allen and Cassell they where good for a few years and ultimately made it to the east finals where they lost to the answer and the 76ers then traded ray Allen and we’ve been in the dump since. Atleast before this trade we actually were beating playoff teams like Memphis and Atlanta earlier this year you can’t beat chemistry and that’s exactly what we had so how long have you been a bucks fan? What’s the point of finally having a team not be a 8th seed and fight for 6th or 5th or even 4th remember before the trade we were on a 5 game winning streak after the trade Chicago lost D rose the wizards were losing so we had a chance to move up but the trade happened. I know my bucks history and I know every team every move we’ve ever made

    • Couch Potato Scout

      If you do then why would you want a team like this go to the playoffs? I mean we would have Zaza, Ersan, and Henson basically handle all the frontcourt duties. I don’t even think there’s a 30% possibility they make it past the 2nd rd. And then next season we have to let go of either Knight or Middleton, deal with an even older Zaza and Ersan, while trying to pick a good young guy somewhere in the 20s range. Maybe I’m too caught up with the recent tanking trend, but all the fantastic teams either have had a top 5 positional star in his prime, and/or have developed extremely slowly through tanking, (excluding the Spurs, they are an anomaly in practically everything, even though I’m pretty sure they tanked for Tim Duncan). Teams like: The Heat, Spurs, Thunder, Bulls, Indiana, LA Clippers, and even Houston. (Heat has Lebron, Bulls Rose/Joakim Noah, Thunder Durant and Westbrook, Indiana Paul George and used to be Hibbert, Clippers CP3 and Griffin, Houston Harden&Howard)
      I would agree with you if Knight& the rest of the young Bucks were closer to their prime and/or the Bucks had a decent C; but no one is and Zaza is barley mobile enough to go up and down the court. The core: Jabari and Giannis are <20 and as such we should just wait until they are closer to their prime, and then make sure we are not tearing down the chem.
      I'd say wait until next November until you make your judgment on the trade, because by then we will see how good Middleton, MCW, Plumlee, and Ennis are capable of vs. Brandon Knight.

      • BK or Middleton is a false dilemna, there was nothing saying we couldn’t have had both. And how were we picking in the 20s………6th pick in the East means 17th right now Toronto(3rd) would pick 20th

        As for your team-buidling history lesson…Indiana went from lottery, to 8th seed and 1st round out to 2nd round out, then contenders. but they never tanked, lowest win total was 32 the year before they took the 8th seed which wsa Paul George’s first year. Are you saying the Rockets tanked too? The haven’t had a losing record since 05/06.

        • Couch Potato Scout

          No, tanking isn’t mandatory, and I didn’t say it was. I’ll just quote my previous post “ll the fantastic teams either have had a top 5 positional star in his prime,”. Paul George is Top 3 in his position as is Harden (who is arguably #1) I forgot Dwight Howard was top 3 in his position as well.
          Why isn’t BK or Middleton a false dilemma? The Bucks have less than 15mil to sign both of them this offseason, and unless you think Knight is willing to take less than 10mil (impossible) or Middleton is going to take less than 6mil (unlikely), I am correct. The only way to have enough room to sign them both is to trade Ersan and/or OJ Mayo, and like I said in another post “If we actually did trade Ersan and OJ, who would take them and why? Kinda old and overpaid is not a good combination. If you wanted to take nearly no salary in return we would probably have to settle for 2nd rd picks, which is a total waste.” AND “I agree trading Ersan and Mayo is a great idea, but again there are very, very few teams that have the cap room to take them without giving up a big contract in exchange. And even fewer teams that are willing to take them, without some sort of sweetener.”

          • Or you can go over the cap? Or give up the Clips pick for Philly to take on Mayo or Ersan with no salary coming back……Or trade one of them for a smaller contract with more years……..or trade one of them for a player in a position we could use more(Centre).

            Lots of options, it shouldn’t be portrayed as a choice between Middleton and BK. I don’t think giving up the LAC pick would have been bad for such a massive downgrade in PG as we just got.

          • Couch Potato Scout

            Oh, I completely disagree. First, no team is going to go over the cap for these two guys. Second, we are going to willingly give our current starting PF and the SG who was a good spark plug off the bench, and get nothing in return. In fact we will give up something else valuable just so another team will take the contracts. I think that is a huge mistake. The small contracts idea is okay but would most likely not work for another team or end up handcuffing us when we have to sign the stars on the team, Giannis and Jabari. Again, I’d love to trade them but we would get practically no value in return. Next year we might, since they would have some value as expiring contracts, but this year 8 mil is a definite overpay for these two guys. It would have been better to try and trade them earlier this season or last offseason, but this offseason they will not be wanted.

            Giannis and Jabar are 19, if we are building around them, we should try to keep/get as many draft picks as possible, and/or keeps guys that have potential in the long run.
            So we keep Knight, that means way less touches for Giannis and Jabari later on, and they have yet to shown many highlights off the ball on offense. Only Giannis’ cutting is decent. With MCW at least there’s the potential for spreading the ball more + more defense is always better.

  8. Update: the heat do not have LeBron. The Clippers signed chris Paul threw free agency. The thunder are good but they might get bounced out the first round by the Warriors and they made a stupid trade also by trading harden which they traded after making the finals and haven’t been back since. We tanked already and got parker we’ve been tanking for 15 years that’s the point I’m trying to make . All those teams have a core we had that and if you want to make room for cash you can move on from mayo and ersan who have 14mil combined in money trade them make room built threw draft.

    • Couch Potato Scout

      I know, I said/meant teams in the past couple years that went deep in the playoffs. CP3=Top 3 player. Thunder will not get bounced if Westbrook keeps on playing like a psychotic mini- Oscar Robertson (I’m an not a Westbrook fan at all, but gotta respect what he is doing) I’m saying tanking= Bottom 6 (in the whole NBA) teams. You are saying tanking=8th seed every year. 8th=15th pick, which is usually never as good as a top 10 pick, which we could get as a bottom 6 team.
      I don’t really believe in going after a great free agent unless he’s young and got potential, like Jimmy Butler.
      Also, I’m just referencing the Mayo and Ersan signing as recent “playoff push players” who failed.
      What do you think about my points about having no frontcourt?
      If we actually did trade Ersan and OJ, who would take them and why? Kinda old and overpaid is not a good combination. If you wanted to take nearly no salary in return we would probably have to settle for 2nd rd picks, which is a total waste.
      For me the potential of MCW+2 other young guys > the potential of Knight and the Bucks’ chemistry.
      How many teams have actually had fantastic chemistry carry over to another season?

  9. Teams with fantastic chemistry would be the spurs who just went to two straight finals and won one out of the two the heat before that and non championship teams like the thunder and the warriors..now I understand those teams have mvp like players on them but yes in acouple more years giannis and parker will be our westbrook and Durant.Our frontcourt players are not the best I know but I believe in Henson and as far as trading mayo and ersan the kings need a pg like MCW and they want a 4 that can shoot and this is just me putting on my GM hat which I know nothing about but they’ll have a top 6 pick and Willie Cauley-Stein is good frontcourt player for this team moving up in the draft for him would be smart and im saying that with hopes of keeping our other first rounder and maybe trading one or both of our second rounders or a future pick. Look him up tell me what you think if you don’t follow college hoops.I believe Ersan is 28 29 and mayo is 27 so there still young believe it or not. The thunder are good and as much as I like westbrook and the thunder they are not beating the warriors and what they got there. the warriors do not only have great chemistry but Steph Curry…..and I don’t believe in goingafter great free agents either even if it is jimmy butler.

    • Couch Potato Scout

      I’ve absolutely love and have loved Willie Caule-Stein I think he is the ultimate version of Larry Sander. He’s taller, more athletic, can dunk a bit better, and is still a bit of a nutcase! I agree I thought the Kings would love Ersan, (though I’m not sure they would like MCW) but I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t give up a lottery pick for those two. Also they will have less than 4 mil in cap room this offseason. (since 12mil will be freed up by expiring contracts this season, but they are already 8mil over the cap max).
      Again, I think our difference in opinion about the trade is because of our different perspectives about the potential of Knight vs. MCW+2 other guys.
      2 Question: First, what did you think or do think that Knight can/will improve on?
      Also, what do you think about DeAndre Jordan, him becoming a free agent this offseason, and should the Bucks get him?

      One more thought: I agree trading Ersan and Mayo is a great idea, but again there are very, very few teams that have the cap room to take them without giving up a big contract in exchange. And even fewer teams that are willing to take them, without some sort of sweetener. If we had kept Knight, and signed him to the big contract, it would have resulted in losing Middleton. Is that trade-off worth it? For me, no since Middleton is a 6″8′ wing who can shoot great, play fantastic D (2 steals per game!), is unselfish, and is only 23 yrs old! Those guys don’t grow on trees.
      However, Knight was basically a shoot-first point guard who was a good leader. Nothing much more than that. And I feel there are a bunch of those type of undersized shooting guards in the draft.

  10. I agree. Trading Ersan and Mayo isn’t easy with those contracts. Next year, may be we can trade them because it is close to expired. Knight must be traded this year or we will lose either him or Middleton for nothing this Summer.

  11. Couch Potato Scout

    How/Where!? Unless we ship out 1 and/or 2nd rounders we aren’t going to be able to trade them without getting a similar contract in retrun. If you think trading picks to give away players is a good idea, good for you, because for me I think it is a remarkably bad idea.
    It’s like paying a person in order to accept a present. I looked at nearly all the teams that will have a cap number under 55mil. Almost all of them have some big pieces to resign. The few teams that don’t, don’t need a stretch 4 (celtics, Timberwolves).
    Seriously, unless you are all for picks + Mayo/Ersan for nada, I’d like to see some realistic trades.

  12. Remember knight was shoot first because he had to be he was the leading scorer who else was gonna do it at that time with parker hurt and Middleton wasn’t scoring like he is now but as you can see we needed knight to shoot first most of the time cause he sparked our offense 80% of the time. Atleast we know he can carry a time like he did I think with the development of the trio Middleton Giannis and parker in the future he wouldn’t be so shoot first which I had no problem with we needed him to do that it led to 31-23 before the trade but I think Brandon would of improved on he’s pg skills more his passing and defense cause he’s only 23 and you can tell he was a hard worker who actually gave a damn. DeAndre Jordan is not leaving LA for milwaukee there’s no way I see that happening. We still might lose Middleton I know he’s a restricted free agent but I’m telling you that trade didn’t sit well with some of those guys in the locker room which I believe has also led to this slide…

    • Knight didn’t become a scoring-first point guard just out of necessity. That’s just how he is. For the criticisms of MCW and his turnovers, Knight was just as prone to doing it and often in even more boneheaded ways, whether it was getting caught in the air, trying to split two defenders on the way to the basket or driving too far in and getting stripped or making an errant pass.

      Middleton, from all reports, is very happy in Milwaukee. Even if he wasn’t happy here, he is a restricted free agent and one of the bigger reasons why the Bucks felt comfortable giving up Knight, so that they could sign or match Middleton no matter the cost and still have decent cap room.

      No one knows how this deal will ultimately pan out. MCW may never be great, but Kidd obviously sees something in him to have Hammond make the trade in the first place. Obviously with Knight we’d be better right now, but that signifies the most important reason for the trade: they made the move looking towards the future, something that never happened during the Kohl era.

      Good intentions alone make me feel a hell of a lot better about the move. The Bucks defying expectations like they have this year is good enough for me. A playoff seed, while encouraging, was never the end goal for the year.

      • Ok let’s look at the Brooklyn game where MCW took 26 FGA. His TS% is 45ish and BK’s is 55ish. It can be expected that if BK took the same number of shots the Bucks would have scored 5 more points in that game.

        BK was 5.4 assists and 3.2 to with the Bucks, MCW is 5.5 assists and 3.2 to……….maybe you can see where I have a problem?

        And even assuming trading BK was necessary, why did we take a guy who is not even a Top 30 PG over a pick that has the potential to be as high as #4 the next two years

        • I do see your gripe. I think most Bucks fans are at a loss in regards to the decision to take MCW over the pick. I think we have to take a good hard look at the fact that while Kidd may not be general manager in name, it’s clear that he has major influence on roster decisions given the moves for Kenyon Martin, Jorge Gutierrez, and now Carter-Williams. While he’s been a pleasant surprise as a coach, him having this type of power over roster decisions may very well come back to bite the Bucks in the butt.

          Either way, it’s pointless to nitpick right now. All we can hope is that with the off season and a full training camp, Kidd will be able to help MCW realize his potential and become a good/great point guard.

          • So as long as your in the same Agency as Kidd(Excel)he wasnts you on the Bucks, bodes well for the future

        • Couch Potato Scout

          Like Kevin said, this is a trade based on potential, and is a great improvement over the last 10 year’s worth of trades focused on improving now. 76ers had intrest in trading MCW, there are multiple articles on that, and they value picks way too much. (how many times have they traded just for 2nd rd picks).
          I’d swear we are going in circles now:
          The Bucks are betting that Plumlee, Ennis, + MCW’s potential> Knight’s
          MCW’s physical attributes and natural passing instincts seem to give him a greater potential, to me and the Bucks organization, vs. Knight’s shot and leadership.
          It just comes down to the money Knight and Middleton were going to be owed and the potential of Knight vs. who we got back in the trade. Seriously, we just have different opinions/perspectives/memories of how good Knight was vs MCW now.

          • So the older player who has shown no improvement over his first year(actually got worse) has more potential that the younger guy who showed improvement in both his 3rd and 4th year?

            I’ll leave it at that, no use continuing the circles

          • Couch Potato Scout

            The 76ers philosophy of insane pace, combined with the lack of any weapons around him, and combined with a couple injuries could lead to MCW regressing and/or not having as good stats as Knight.
            Also, I’ll reiterate my philosophy:
            MCW has greater unteachable gifts than Knight, (physical height, weight, solid speed for his physical stats, and being pass-first). Shooting can be taught.
            You can’t simply point at the box score.
            Also, you were the one leading the circles. Ever since my first post about this topic I’ve said quote that “this trade is for the future”
            It even follows the Ted Thompson model of more draft picks=greater chance of getting a star.
            Lastly, you haven’t really said how we could have both Middleton and Knight as you claim. Nor have you said how Knight could improve.
            It really just seems like you pick a sentance or two out of my post, and throw a couple stats at them.

  13. Couch Potato Scout

    Yeah, here’s where we disagree, I just can’t see Knight magically waking up one day and deciding to become more of a passer. And where as you remember him having to be the leading scorer, I remember him forcing himself to become the leading scorer. The biggest thing I miss about him was how clutch he is. DeAndre might not want to leave LA but LA is right against the cap at 65mil this offseason, so they might not have enough money to resign him.
    I can’t see Middleton leaving, we gave him his big chance, asked specifically for him in the trade, and he fits perfectly into Jason Kidd’s scheme.
    And if you all think that we could have somehow signed both Middleton and Knight in the offseason, maybe we can clear enough money this offseason to make a run at them both.
    I’ll look at their game some more, usually I fast forward a bunch of it, but I’ll make an exception.

  14. 31-23 with Knight. 4-13 without Knight and with MCW…..why are we knocking knight and supporting MCW right now???? Seriously this starting to get stupid.

    • Couch Potato Scout

      Potential, and different variables like chemistry, injuries, rotation, strength of schedule.

  15. 1/4fg 0/1 on threes 4pts 4assist 6turnovers 6personal fouls..and we came back and won without him. Need I say more?